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Poster: ringolevio Date: Oct 3, 2010 3:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: China > Rider

I'm probably quite uninformed on this topic, but are there better China > Riders than late '72? I haven't looked systematically, but I've been sampling late '72 and these are just so beautiful. For example:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd72-10-30.aud.cotsman.10915.sbeok.shnf

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Poster: csaw44 Date: Oct 3, 2010 10:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

8/27/72

tasty.

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Poster: madmonkmcphee Date: Oct 4, 2010 11:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

9/17/72 for dessert

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Poster: Incornsyucopia Date: Oct 7, 2010 8:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

9/20/90 is one for the ages. It's equal to anything from the 70s I'd say. Garcia and Hornsby's solos are so ON.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Oct 3, 2010 4:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

I've always been a big China/Rider fan, with Eur.72 being the standard bearer. My prefs are 72-74, but others might have strong opinions.

This may provide a guide, I have not checked them all out:

http://gratefuldeadprojects.com/China_Cat_Rider.html
(scroll down for their list)

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Poster: Dhamma1 Date: Oct 3, 2010 6:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Our own Light Into Ashes wrote one of his fine essays on this topic a couple years ago in a forum post. It's also on his blog at

http://deadessays.blogspot.com/2009/08/chinarider-early-years.html

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Oct 3, 2010 7:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

I agree with the others that '73/74 are the best years for China>Rider. (Especially '74.) The '72 versions just don't feel complete to me - Weir does his solo, which is about the same every time, then Garcia paints in a few notes which dribble inconclusively into Rider. (Sometimes in late '72 he does more, but generally...) I need more of a full transition jam to be happy! And the Feelin' Groovy jam was just right - instead of Rider kind of quietly sneaking up, in '73 they started dramatically pouncing on it from the jam, which works better for me.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Oct 5, 2010 4:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

I think I actually prefer the plainer earlier versions. Rider is supposed to be a plaintive song IMO, and there is almost a bit too much frenzy in some of the later versions. I like it uptempo but sort of gentle and folky. Mine is a minority opinion it seems!

edit - that said, 5/3/72 is certainly spectacular.

This post was modified by ringolevio on 2010-10-05 11:52:41

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Oct 4, 2010 12:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

"I agree with the others that '73/74 are the best years for Weir does his solo, which is about the same every time"

I've always wanted to ask this question. Is there a lead guitar gene? Mr. Bob stood next to one of greatest guitarists in history, and nothing rubbed off. Why is that? I think he's mind-boggling good at rhythm, but... Did you ever come across anything like this in your historical research?

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Oct 4, 2010 6:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider & Weir

Well, different guys have different styles.... What exactly should have 'rubbed off'?
(Maybe Garcia could've given some slide lessons...)

Weir did not want to be a 'lead' player, his role was providing rhythms & filling in spaces & generally being the 'push' of a song. I doubt he ever would've bothered trying to do a solo like Garcia. (He tried to avoid having a similar guitar tone as Garcia, as well.) When he did do a solo, it tended to be jagged in style, with none of the flowing lilt that Garcia could bring. One reviewer said that if Weir had been the Dead's lead guitarist, audiences would have gone home with headaches!
But look at it the other way. Garcia was quite complimentary about Weir's style - he said he was always surprised by Weir's playing, and could never have come up with some of Weir's musical ideas. As far as other guitarists 'rubbing off', he said he couldn't tell where Weir got his style from, as it sounded very original & unique.
Anyway, having dual lead guitarists worked for the Allmans, but it wasn't quite the way the Dead worked....

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Oct 4, 2010 8:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider & Weir

Thank you - that's great. I guess it is all individual, isn't it? BTW - if WT is PM I nominate you for Secretary of Education.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Oct 3, 2010 4:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

The performances of China/Rider from 1972 are tight and well played (5/16/72 being my favorite C/R of '72), but in my opinion, the transition really came into it's own during 1973 and into 1974. There are quite a few excellent performances of the pair during this period.

Many heads love the China/Rider from 12/6/73, and the transition on 2/24/74 is also certainly among the very best ever! Other excellent ones were performed on 10/19/73, 12/18/73, 5/19/74 and 6/26/74.

My personal favorite is from Des Moines on 6/16/74. No longer streamable here as the show was included in Road Trips II/3.

A profoundly good China/Rider transition was performed on 11/24/79. The band locks-in like the Allmans on this one, which also features what might be the best ever I Know You Rider...

http://www.archive.org/details/gd79-11-24.sbd.clugston.10022.sbeok.shnf

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Poster: duckpond74 Date: Oct 3, 2010 4:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Cliff, we must have crossed paths in the ether . . . glad to see you share the humor and joy in that 6/16/74 version. I remember watching Jerry having a great time, laughing often during that transition jam.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 3, 2010 10:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Wow, that 11/24-79 is just insane ... and as an opener?!? Talk about going from zero to 110 in a few seconds flat! How often did that happen? (A China Rider opener, I mean.) I don't see a way to search for openers in the databases I have bookmarked, though there may well be one ...

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Oct 4, 2010 5:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

China> Rider was the show opener on a number of occassions:

12/10/69
12/31/69
01/10/70
01/23/70
02/05/70
02/13/70
03/23/72
03/16/73
10/31/79
11/05/79
11/24/79
07/30/83
02/11/86

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 6:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Well, see how much I know? Still, if that's all of them, I guess that's not exactly Bertha or Minglewood.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Oct 4, 2010 7:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Yeah, that one is interesting.
(only one I've listened to so far)

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 8:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Btw that whole show is terrific. I've been listening to it off and on today. Great strong Phil, particularly in the SBD that's in the link above. Also a wonderful Terrapin (if you like Terrapins ... though aren't you in the lukewarm-on-Terrapin camp?) Am up to the PITB; still great! The only thing I've skipped was the Easy to Love You. I just can't do Brent solos -- though, actually, I like the way he blends in for this show as a whole so far.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Oct 4, 2010 2:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Passenger is also a phenomenal rendition. Almost as good as 11/24/78!

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 8:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

True. (That it's phenomenal. Will check out 11-24-78.) I like Passenger, and wonder why they stopped doing it. Guess they had to make room for Hell in a Bucket ...

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Oct 4, 2010 8:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

shudder

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Oct 4, 2010 2:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Cliff and I may not see eye to eye on the later years, but we seem to have found some common ground here. The devastating Rider is one of the most powerful ones your ever going to hear. The 74's have some of the most well played and absolutely gorgeous stretches of music, but for sheer nuclear powered devastation, this one is hard to touch.

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Poster: duckpond74 Date: Oct 3, 2010 4:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Though I've always found the '72 China Cat / Riders to be things of beauty, the 6/16/74 performance from Des Moines, Iowa, continually brings a smile. It's a little rough, almost funky, and the "I've Been Working On The Railroad" during the segue jam always cracks me up. The cleanest version can be found on a recent Road Trips release.

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Poster: Reade Date: Oct 3, 2010 5:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: don't forget 8/5/74

Cliff's response is spot on. I second every word, except he forgpt tp mention 8-5-74. A yummy transition jam to be had there.
1972 is easily my favorite year; it offers many things you just can't find elsewhere.
However, with that said, I look to '73 and '74 for epic China > Riders.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Oct 3, 2010 6:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: don't forget 8/5/74

Thanks everyone. I was so looking forward to curling up to listen to these ... but I have to turn my laptop over to my son for the evening ... hopefully tomorrow.

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Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: Oct 3, 2010 7:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

For a nice earlier one, try 10/4/70...

http://www.archive.org/details/gd70-10-04.sbd.cotsman.4942.sbeok.shnf

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Poster: BVD Date: Oct 3, 2010 10:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

I think 5/3/72 is my favorite. From Paris. I believe it's on E72

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Poster: BVD Date: Oct 4, 2010 7:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Wiseguy ey ??? LOA

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 7:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Ummm, what does LOA mean? I'm not very knowledgeable, web-slang-wise, so I googled it. Google wanted to know if I meant LOA in Hawaiian or LOA in pregnancy ... also, it's apparently a voodoo spirit. Should we be worried?

(BVD, after all, means Bene Volens Diabolus ... Best Wishes from the Devil ... I should point out that this isn't my interpretation; it's from the noted expert Edward Eager, in his excellent tome, Knight's Castle. You can google it :-) )

This post was modified by AltheaRose on 2010-10-04 14:58:54

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Oct 4, 2010 9:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

So that's why they call undershorts BVDs?

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 9:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Yes. This is discovered, I believe, by Sir Hugo DeLacy, when the time-traveling young hero goes back to the days of Ivanhoe in his PJs. This was a very influential book on me in 5th grade.

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Oct 4, 2010 12:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

OMG - I'm teetering on the edge of incredulousness.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 8:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

I can push you over, if you like, by discussing a more recent literary choice among the new generation: Captain Underpants.

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Oct 6, 2010 9:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Who? Am I that divorced from current reality? OTOH, I do know that the latest kid food rage to sweep the country is spaghetti tacos. I look at that as another indicator of the failure of the Boomers. Why couldn't we have thought of that. Duh!

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Poster: BVD Date: Oct 4, 2010 10:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Yes I am not web-slang savy at all. I replied to your message before coffee. I meant to put LOL. ha ha. Thanks for clearing up LOA. No worries!

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 9:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Never do anything before coffee. That's a very important rule. Otherwise, you open the door for the Loas.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Oct 4, 2010 12:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Did they play a China/Rider that was less than stellar on that continent in 1972?

The 5/3/72 performance of C/R was in all likelyhood the prettiest of the tour. You certainly can't fault them for selecting that version for the album. The entire 5/3 Olympia Hall show is, in my opinion, the most asthetically beautiful performance of the tour.

Still, I prefer the China> Rider from 5/16/72. Perhaps it was the extraordinary high-wattage surging through the transmitter at Radio Luxembourg, but that performance just crackles with an energy/vibe unique to that performance; reflected in the China/Rider segue (and also on The Other One), very well played by Weir!

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Poster: duckpond74 Date: Oct 4, 2010 10:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

"The entire 5/3 Olympia Hall show is, in my opinion, the most asthetically beautiful performance of the tour." I couldn't agree more . . . I've heard it said that Phil invited Darius Milhaud and Olivier Messiaen to these two Paris shows. When told that they were in the house, Phil told the band before they went on that they had to play "really well and really 'pretty'" . . . be it truth or rumour, this little legend has long given these shows an added mystique.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 3, 2010 10:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Yeah, that's a great one. But it was really done by NRPS :-)

Actually, and I'm sure this must be common knowledge to other folks here, but didn't they do a bunch of -- what's it called? overdubbing? multiple layers of tracks? -- on E 72? If so, would 5/3/72 be the one on E 72, or would it be combined with some others?

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Oct 4, 2010 5:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

I believe the overdubbing done on the Europe '72 album was mostly just "cleaning up" the vocal tracks and was done in the studio. As opposed to adding instrumental tracks from multiple performances vis a vis Anthem of the Sun.

And while the China> Rider performed on 5/3/72 is certainly beautiful (the entire Paris show is extraordinary). The China> Rider performed in Luxembourg on 5/16/72 is even better. The segue being more intense...

http://www.archive.org/details/gd72-05-16.sbd.unknown.10353.sbeok.shnf



This post was modified by Cliff Hucker on 2010-10-04 12:57:23

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Oct 4, 2010 9:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

I always thought that they redid the vocals. That's not cleaning. that's renovation. At least they didn't use auto-tune.

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Poster: duckpond74 Date: Oct 4, 2010 3:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

You are correct sir - cleaning up the vocals means re-recording them in the studio and adding effects to simulate a similar ambient background to match the original recording. Then replacing those vocal tracks on the 16 track masters (or safety masters) to be mixed down to stereo.

From what I remember reading, back in the day, the Europe 72 vocals were actually re-recorded to give the album a more 'polished' sound.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 8:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Well, that explanation makes sense. (Though just about any explanation would probably make sense to me, LOL.)

I tend to think E 72 might be the best "intro album" among the official (pre-DP etc) releases. I always liked it better than AB or WD. But I haven't actually heard it in years. It's interesting that, for all the work put into polishing it (and other albums), the raw, live, warts-and-all sound seems to be what draws and keeps people in the end ... Guess no one would have imagined that in the 70s.

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Poster: duckpond74 Date: Oct 4, 2010 9:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Hi AR, still enjoying Nepal - warts and all?

"Guess no one would have imagined that in the 70s" - might I direct you to my TDIH - Winterland 10-4-70 thread from earlier today. It seems several of us older heads were taken by this raw, unadulterated show on bootleg vinyl . . . But I tend to agree with you that Europe 72 won over several newcomers and nonbelievers to the cause - something for everyone, as i used to say. Many folks in college had 'old ice cream head' as their first and/or only Dead album. If you haven't heard it in a while, pick up the remastered 2 CD digipack now reduced to midprice and often available - in the western world - for under $10. A heck of a deal.

By the way, were you ever able to listen to Paris 5-3-72 in it's entirety? If so, 5-4-72 is equally worth the effort. For years this was my overseas flight Dark Star listening. The two nights together are possibly my favorite pairing ever - desert island discs (all 7!) indeed.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 10:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Oh, definitely. And it's pretty familiar territory, actually. I lived here in the 90s. Read about JG's death in the Kathmandu Post ...

>"Guess no one would have imagined that in the 70s" -

Yeah, certainly a lot of folks appreciated and even preferred the raw stuff (tapes, of course, and yeah, I had a bootleg on vinyl, too ... late 70s, but an early 70s show ... wish I knew which one!). But I'm thinking more of the band themselves and people involved in record production. "Polished" seems to have been the goal, with the paradoxical idea that somehow, if they polished it right, it would approximate the energy of the live performances, and that this "polished" version -- either a studio album or a cleaned-up live album -- would be the long-term keeper, with the tape trading as a temporary phenomenon. When in fact, the opposite essentially turned out to be true. The tapers ended up driving the horse, as it were, and it's been the live esthetic that has predominated. I'd guess more people get into the GD now through DPs and the IA than through the albums.

Oh, and yeah, I've managed to grapple with the technology over here enough to listen to most of what I want to hear, though it's not just click-n-stream; definitely, 5/3/72 is fantastic! Will try 5/4, too. Kathmandu's ever-entertaining bumper-to-rickshaw traffic is far more bearable with a soundtrack. Though of course, Bollywood Film Hits are good for ambience, too. With multiple car horns for punctuation.

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Poster: duckpond74 Date: Oct 4, 2010 11:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Bollywood hits with car horns ... i can hear it in my mind's ear - and it sounds fantastic!

"Polished" seems to have been the goal - for Warner Brothers is how i understood it to be. Others here on the forum may have more facts and details, but the story back when it was released, as i remember it, was that Warners was the entity that wanted to 'polish' up the vocals to make it more commercially viable. The Dead agreed to oblige if they could release it as a 3 record set. It was their most commercially successful record to date, but talk was that the dead were feeling artistically compromised - once again i'm going on old talk and rumours of the day. Soon after, they left Warners and started Grateful Dead Records.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Oct 5, 2010 12:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

You're right that the band tried to 'polish' their live albums, feeling that they could best present themselves through lots of overdubbing... I think their desire for studio-perfect live albums skewed those albums towards the more 'polished' listener-friendly songs, leaving more interesting material unreleased.
Fortunately, fans were thrilled enough with the original 'warts & all' shows, they started taping & collecting like mad, making the 'official' albums almost irrelevant except to uninitiated Dead newcomers.

I discussed this a bit in this old essay:
http://deadessays.blogspot.com/2009/08/did-dead-like-their-live-albums.html

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Oct 4, 2010 6:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Hmmm. What is meant by "cleaning up" a vocal track? Wouldn't overdubbing imply taking another track and putting it on top (or is that how it would be "cleaned up" -- e.g., exchanged with another one)?

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Oct 4, 2010 6:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Now this is above my pay-grade. But I am sure Charlie or one of the folks here more knowledgeable about this will chime in to clarify...

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Poster: Skobud Date: Oct 4, 2010 8:31am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: China > Rider

Im pretty sure when they clean up or remaster they are looking at the waveform of the signal and removing certain frequencies that are responsible for static or hiss or even low level feedback...Again, like Dennis said, Charlie could answer this better.

I do know that some serious overdubbing went on during Workingman's...Just listen to UJB, that was tracked over a few times to get that harmony to sound that way...They borrowed that from Crosby and CSN, who were notorious for tracking their vocal harmonies over and over until they got it just the way they wanted it to sound. Jackson talks about that breifly in Garcia: American life.

This post was modified by Skobud on 2010-10-04 15:31:42